Toyota Prius: Lifetime of a Toyota Prius

"Phil" <com> wrote in message
news:googlegroups.com... 

Oh no! The 2002 I bought a few months ago has only 3K miles to live!

Seriously, the reason so few batteries are stocked is because the demand is
so low. I've lost count, but altogether I've heard of perhaps a dozen main
battery replacments. The symptoms in each case pointed to failing
connections within the battery, possibly within individual cells, rather
than loss of capacity. Age seems to be a minor factor. I've never heard of a
Prius being scrapped because it needed a main battery.

The supply of batteries from wrecks greatly exceeds the demand. A member of
the Yahoo! Prius Technical Stuff forum bought a main battery on ebay for
$600 for experimentation... not bad, considering the core value of a battery
is $200 US from Toyota.

I hadn't heard if the owner of the Yahoo! Prius forum reached 200K miles on
his 2001 yet; the last I recall was something like 194K miles. The first
owner to exceed 200K miles was probably the famous (in some circles)
Vancouver taxi owner whose service record extends through 206K miles -
http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Pages/images/scan.pdf

Compare this with Ford Taurus automatics, which had a design flaw in the
forward clutch piston that effectively limited the life of the vehicle to
125-150K miles.

Mike

"Phil" <com> wrote in message
news:googlegroups.com... 

How old is your information may I ask?

Michael Pardee wrote: 

Eric posted about passing 200,000 miles at:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/message/97293

according to his signature on his most recent post,
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/message/98880 , his
vehicles are up to:
Eric Metzler in Enfield, Maine
'00 Silver Insight #223, "Alumena"
106,000 miles, 57.1 mpg over last 72,000 miles
'01 Green Prius, "Genie"
205,000 miles, 40/46 winter/summer mpg
'04 Tideland Pearl Prius pkg. 9, "Puddleglum"
70,000 miles, 46mpg (less in winter)
 

and another hybrid taxi owner in BC is now over 254,000 miles as well:
http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Toyota_Prius.htm#hybridtaxi

Meanwhile, I still can't believe that people are still quoting the CNW
paper with a Prius lifetime of only ~100,000 miles... That report is
so riddled with poor assumptions (causing bad math) as to reek of
anti-hybrid propaganda.

(I suppose that if you counted all the vehicles disposed of early by
accidents, as opposed to those scrapped by age/wear/repair costs, then
maybe you could sufficiently drag down a vehicle's lifespan, but that
doesn't help with longevity questions but more with insurance
questions... (I guess this is similar to how infant mortality rates
greatly affect a population's life expectancy.)

Some articles for further reading:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2004062345528 (bench
testing of hybrid battery)
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/hev/end_of_life_test_1.pdf (fuel economy and
battery capacity testing once 160,000 miles are reached on a Classic
Prius, GenI HCH, Insight)
http://avt.inl.gov/hev.shtml (HEV testing)
http://www.toronto.ca/fleet/pdf/technology_testing_report_0703.pdf
(all vehicles tested are expected to have a life cycle of ownership of
only 8 years)
http://www.arb.ca.gov/regs/title13/2112.pdf (California Code of
Regulations, title 13, requiring vehicles to have a useful life of
(depending on passenger vehicle) 5 years/50,000 miles (whichever occurs
first), or 7 years/75,000 miles, 10 years/120,000 miles, or 10
years/150,000 miles. See Division 3, chapter 2, Article 2.1, section
10 and 17. (BTW: 2004-current Prius qualifies under the 10 year/150,000
mile criteria.))

The article was dated october 2003.

See the following link to the article:

http://www.carpoint.com.au/print.aspx?TabID=500945&R=ce5452&ModID=1001879

The quote about life of car can be followed from a link in the article
or directly with the following link:

http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-news/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabID=500648&ArticleID=5487&R= ce5487



mark_digital© wrote: 

"Phil" <com> wrote in message
news:googlegroups.com...
The article was dated october 2003.

See the following link to the article:

http://www.carpoint.com.au/print.aspx?TabID=500945&R=ce5452&ModID=1001879

================================================== ===============
The article is quite even-handed; it does point out that "there have been
questions raised about the life span of its battery pack, the replacement
cost and relative recyclability." That covers it well. Googling "Prius
battery fail" returns about 120K hits, mostly speculating on how common and
frequent the main battery failures will be. Googling "Honda transmission
fail" [without quotes] returns about 600K hits, most asking why their
transmission failed, how to get Honda to pay for it (Honda provides extended
coverage for a group of their transmissions that had a high failure rate),
etc. Googling "Taurus transmission fail" returns about 170K hits... same
thing, except Ford didn't support the customers. Bottom line: ten years
after the Prius was introduced in Japan people are still speculating how
long the batteries will last because they aren't failing in enough numbers
to provide data.
================================================== =================

The quote about life of car can be followed from a link in the article
or directly with the following link:

http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-news/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabID=500648&ArticleID=5487&R= ce5487

================================================== ===============

That's more familiar. Toyota has consistently maintained the battery is
designed to last the life of the car. Normally, Toyota reps have declined to
put a figure on the design life of the car, just as all mfrs except perhaps
Rolls Royce do. You can see the danger: BelchFire says their car is designed
to last 10 years, then MotorSkate says theirs is designed to last 12
years... leading to a Liar's Poker escalation in which the competitors
finally turn on SteelHorse and say "Oh yeah? Prove your cars actually last
two hundred years!" More recently we have heard a Toyota rep say the car is
designed to last 12 to 15 years. I suspect he was also speaking out of
school.

The same article is the basis of a lot of FUD concerning the "greenness" of
the NiMH batteries Toyota uses. This particular article even suggests
special handling if a lot of the NiMH batteries are collected in one place,
but doesn't mention that Toyota pays $200 for the return of unserviceable
hybrid batteries. Presumably Toyota contracted in advance for the recycler
(it would be smart business practice in Japan) and rolled the contract
amount into the purchase price of their hybrids. In any event, nickle is too
valuable to just throw away.

This is also an Australian site, which explains why the battery - actually
hybrid system - warranty is given as 5 years. Here in the US the base hybrid
system warranty period has been 8 years / 100K miles since the beginning,
while in the states that adhere to California's emission rules the warranty
is 10 years / 150K miles. It goes without saying the failure rate in that
worst case (10 years / 150K miles) is expected to be low, or Toyota would be
smart not to offer the vehicle in those states. So far that matches the real
world experience of the early adopters.

Mike

When my battery dies i'm replacing it with a plug-in kit like the ones at
calcars.org

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:27:13 -0800, net wrote:
 

"Phil" <com> wrote in message
news:googlegroups.com... 

--------------------------------------------

Thanks for the links. I read both articles.
I can relate to your pre-purchase concern about the batteries. In 2002 our
local Toyota dealer finally had a Prius we could actually touch instead of
just reading about. We spoke with their service department and found out if
the battery pack failed after the warrantee a replacement would cost $4800
(US). It didn't scare me away because I just plunked down almost that amount
on a new computer and accessories. And what for? A marginally faster
processor?
Anyway, 2003 rolls around and the battery is now $3400, the color we wanted
was immediately at hand, and factory cruise control was added.
Here we are 4 years later and the car has just a little bit over 87,000
miles, 50,000 miles on the second set of tires, and no major or minor
electrical or mechanical problems. Last I heard, $2000 for a battery.
We have plans to buy another Prius but we don't know when. I can't think of
any reason not to unless there isn't a Toyota service department that's
trustworthy. If gasoline was free we still would want a Prius. If critics
managed to somehow drive the retail cost down, that's good too. I do fear
Toyota will sacrifice fuel efficiency to level the playing field amongst
their line-up of hybrids.

mark_

My real concern was not so much the battery life as the vehicle life.
If the battery last 7-10 years thats quite reasonable. But for toyota
to say the car itself has a life of less than 10 years concerns me. I
am very much a buy and drive till it dies sort of car owner. I have
previously had a manual Mazda 626 which lasted 21 years (1 engine
recondition) and a Mitsubishi Nimbus which is still going strong after
14 years (one replacement automatic transmission and another not so far
away).

For the price of a Prius I would expect a lifetime of at least 16 years
(if not 20). When I calculate the total purchase and lifetime running
costs (petrol, insurance, maintainence, tyres, etc) for a Prius
(assuming lifespan of 10 years) and compare it to a V6 Camry (assuming
lifespan of 16 years) I get an annualised cost for the Prius of
AUD$7500 per annum and for the V6 Camry of AUD$6800 per annum.

That means that even with the much lower petrol costs, the shorter life
makes the Prius a more expensive option. The calculation would be
completely different if the Prius was made to last 16 years (the
annualised cost for the Prius would drop to AUD$6100 per annum).

So is Toyota saying you pay a premium to be environmentally
responsible?



On Jan 21, 7:24 pm, "mark_digital©" <com> wrote: